Business of Beverages

New Wave Non Alcs: Brendan Williams on why the future is functional

Season 2 Episode 4

Send us a text

 In this episode you'll learn what the future holds for non alcoholic beers. Brendan Williams ran the global non alc business for Carlsberg and literally wrote the book on how to roll out a successful NA strategy for other brewers, large and small. Now he's put himself in the game as the co-founder of a new functional NA beer: NuWave.

We discuss the current state of the category, the consumer trends driving growth, the new occasions that are being opened up and the critical role that investment schemes play in creating the incentive for true innovation.

To listen to the previous episode where Brendan discussed the codification for category growth please click HERE.

Support the show

For more high-lights and low-downs follow @BizBevPod on "X" or LinkedIn
Business of Beverages is self-funded and hosted/ edited/produced by Will Keating.
Pádraig Fox co-hosts in a strictly personal capacity.
All opinions are those of the person expressing them at all times.

We're not sponsored but we would appreciate it if you could click the link above to support the show and help keep us ad free.



00:29.59
fungalboy
Hello, and welcome to the Business of Beverages. I'm your host, Will Keating, and I'm flying solo today. I have no pork fox with me, but but I am delighted to be joined by Brendan Williams. Good morning, Brendan.

00:41.02
Brendan
Morning, Will. Thanks for having me on the on the program again.

00:45.11
fungalboy
Yeah, absolutely, because this is not your first time. I think we could probably describe you as a friend of the pod you were on.

00:52.15
Brendan
I think that would be accurate.

00:52.63
fungalboy
i

00:53.48
Brendan
I had a wonderful time with you exactly three years ago, actually.

00:58.11
fungalboy
Yeah, and and that actually was something that I went back and I listened to this morning. So for those of you who are interested in the conversation that we have today, um please go back and listen to episode 17 of the pod back in our relatively early days when we talked about all things alcohol-free and and specifically alcohol-free beer, really, in an episode called Sober October.

01:21.30
fungalboy
I'm really this was something that i think we have brandon you been really qualified to speak about you been in the drinks industry for over twenty years i'm both with carlsberg as your as their global head of alcohol free also back with s a b miller i see you're wearing your s a b miller alumni t shirt today.

01:40.37
Brendan
Well, well spotted. Well, yes. ah i'm I'm part of the SAP Miller alumni crew on Facebook and they recently offered some alumni t-shirts, which I bought one. So i'm very I'm the proud owner of a new t-shirt. And I was just saying to you that throughout my career in in brewing, actually those seven or so years with SAP Miller were by far my favorite. In a a really enjoyable career in the brewing industry.

02:08.93
Brendan
But, you know, shame same in some ways that they were sold to ABI, but these these things happened. But very, um you know, just a reflection of how um positive people felt about SMB Miller is many years after that acquisition. You know, the alumni crew are still going going strong and lots of fond memories of a time in that business.

02:28.73
fungalboy
Yeah. And I think that that's one the one of the wonderful things about the industry that we work in, in the brewing industry and the and the drinks industry in general is that you do form fantastic bonds. At the end of the day, it is a fun industry to be in. And it's one which I think builds camaraderie.

02:42.87
Brendan
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think whilst um and i think the industry is so much more professional than sort of people outside of of brewing and alcohol drinks might think, just because of the nature of drinking alcohol.

02:54.32
fungalboy
Yeah. Of course.

02:55.36
Brendan
um you know I think the the level of professionalism and intelligence that brewers like SAB Miller ah brought and continue to bring to to the industry is is incredible.

03:06.89
Brendan
And I'm just so proud to have spent my my ah vast amount of my career in drinks, and that includes Coca-Cola outside of the brewing industry, where it's been yeah enjoyable and just so educational as well.

03:20.68
fungalboy
Yeah, but we we, as we said, we've spoken previously and you've come to specialize ah in that sort of alcohol free space, alcohol free beer in particular. And when we last spoke, we did it as a sober October special um um because you know that was something that was you know trending at the time and we felt it was kind of maybe a slightly eye catching or ear catching headline if you if you want for an episode. But three years later,

03:48.05
fungalboy
Do you think that the category has actually grown outgrown gimmicks like Sober October or Dry January?

03:55.34
Brendan
um Well, yeah oh yes and no. look in in some In some ways, yes. I think that people are drinking alcohol-free alternatives much more regularly and it's accepted that these are there and available all year round. And I think the idea of moderation, meaning abstinence, has moved away swiftly. There was a real negative stigma around drinking alcohol-free when I started specialising it in 2017.

04:25.02
Brendan
And due to social media and yeah younger people really adopting this very quickly and and and retailers stopping it, I think that negative ah perception and association has as has largely gone. um And so people feel proud about bad drinking alcohol free. um But I think that also alcohol is still very ingrained in our social landscape, in ah in our culture. and The role that sober October and dry January play for us is a defined period to to try moderation. And I think that, you know, a lot of people feel very ah wary and scared of, oh my God, you know, stopping drinking alcohol, just because it is the the fun thing to do. It's the way we socialize. It's a way we've learned to connect people.

05:11.44
Brendan
um But there is there is some sort of hesitancy around it. And so from my perspective, the role that Sober October plays is is a positive time to offer new things for for for for the industry to talk about moderation and responsibility and healthier alternatives. And I think that this is the way the world is going. And and you know if you're a strategy person in one of the big multinational brewers, you're seeing the headlines already. You're seeing the writing on the wall.

05:38.69
Brendan
that younger people are drinking less alcohol.

05:38.62
fungalboy
Yes.

05:41.98
Brendan
30% less alcohol for people under 30 is the best figure we can we can now pick up in places like the UK and and Western Europe. So, you know, there this idea that we can continue just all those businesses can just continue selling alcohol, I think is probably past now and they're planning for the future.

05:59.73
Brendan
And, you know, look at things like Carlsberg's acquisition of Bridget Beck, which I would say is ah clearly a beyond via strategy It just reflects where where those businesses will evolve and pivot to in in in the future because you know people are more and more interested in in these periods of moderation.

06:21.16
fungalboy
And that period of moderation, I think, can vary substantially in terms of it's not periods where for a month, January or October, for example, where people you know abstain completely. As you said, it's it's changed to where they simply moderate their behavior by occasion because they have better alternatives and better options than they may have had previously.

06:41.78
fungalboy
A big part of that for me is is actually the advances in the technology and the liquid itself being a far superior offering to what it was 10, 15 years ago.

06:53.40
Brendan
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, you can't I mean, I you can, but you shouldn't launch a ah bad tasting alcohol free beer these days. There are examples of of big brands that are still doing it. But, you know, I led Karlsberg's global ah liquid development ah project for for alcohol free.

07:12.00
Brendan
um i And look, I'm a marketer. I'm not a brewer. um I'm pretty close to the liquid development process, but I know at least this much that you there is no reason to create a bad tasting alcohol-free beer. The technology's there. The flavor options are there. If you're doing 00, for example, it's really the intent and the commitment to create a great tasting beer. And I've just launched New Wave, which is an independent startup.

07:38.23
Brendan
And three of us are from the brewing industry, three of the four founders from the brewing industry. And we've managed to create what what will be award-winning taste profiles for alcohol-free beer. So you know I don't think there's any excuse to to but launch ah a bad tasting product these days.

07:53.28
fungalboy
No, I agree. And I think there are so many ah fantastic options out there and um now and and across a wide variety of beer styles as well, not simply in in mainstream lagers. um

08:02.98
Brendan
no no And in fact, a great example of that is Guinness 00. yeah They are now creating a purpose-built brew because they just can't stay in stock. i have I have had a lot of, not to not to overly promote, kennesser is era but it's a great it is a great liquid and a great example of of what can be done. um you know ive I've been to a lot of events recently and it just constantly comes up as a really good option from from a staff perspective. um and it's you know There are more more options out there that aren't just Largo.

08:32.79
fungalboy
Absolutely. And the last time we spoke, we talked about ABI launching Lefa 00, which was ah a surprise to me as I came across it in in a French supermarket. And as you say, Guinness 00 has gone from strength to strength.

08:44.10
Brendan
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was a funny conversation. I i sort of, uh, I do remember that one. Yeah. la I mean, you associate with high alcohol, Belgian beer, really, really tasty, of course, but to have a zero zero there, but actually a great, um, uh, addition to that conversation is the fact that Guinness have gone into zero zero because in a way you just sort of go, Oh, why that would be a brand that would you would just keep as the original and as the core, because it's such, such an iconic brand.

09:11.16
Brendan
But, you know, for Diageo to move into 00, you know, just so swiftly and naturally and for it to be a great liquid and to really convince Guinness drinkers more than alcohol-free drinkers, but the actual hardcore Guinness drinkers that this is a valid alternative, now that the truth is on stout because it's such a complex liquid and because Guinness doesn't doesn't necessarily taste hugely alcoholic, that the alcohol-free version

09:21.15
fungalboy
Yeah.

09:36.91
Brendan
is a great alternative because you know you just don't pick up the absence of alcohol and it's really really really pleasing so you know that's just um that's this I mean I'm um'm a fan of that liquid of course you've probably picked that up um but I think it's just a great example of of a multinational business really making the effort to create a really nice tasting liquid and you'd have to do that for beginners right I mean you could not let the icon down by having ah having a crappy alternative

10:04.60
fungalboy
ah Absolutely, as ah as a man who brewed Calibre back in the day, i can I can tell you that I'm only thrilled by the improvements that have gone into getting 0-0 in comparison.

10:13.39
Brendan
you know So you're responsible for that.

10:17.39
fungalboy
I'm heartily responsible, yeah. i That's a story for another day, Brandon, I'm afraid.

10:21.83
Brendan
and good

10:22.25
fungalboy
ah

10:22.40
Brendan
but that so dwell on it

10:23.95
fungalboy
Yeah, Caliber, yeah for those of you who don't know, was, and quite possibly still is in some markets, although I would doubt it, one of the original alcohol-free beers from Guinness, but it was not a Guinness 00.

10:37.49
fungalboy
I don't really know what it was, to be perfectly honest, but it was not tasty.

10:40.09
Brendan
was We'd call it a standalone these days. But yeah, look, i think I think the, as I said, technology and the the the intent to create great tasting liquids has definitely moved on.

10:51.87
fungalboy
But I think that the reason that large companies, the likes of Diageo, the likes of ABI, the likes of Carlsberg from your previous experience, have invested so much in this is because as you predicted three years ago, know the category was ripe for growth.

11:02.35
Brendan
Yeah.

11:04.50
fungalboy
And it was ripe for growth in a way that I think was exciting to people because they were incremental drinkers. they were but incremental occasions, incremental volume.

11:15.02
fungalboy
So you weren't necessarily switching people out of one brand into another, you were actually attracting them into the category. And back three years ago, you were saying that the UK was at about 3% market share for non-alcoholic, and you predicted that that would would grow and that it would attract new drinkers and new new occasions on the way.

11:26.73
Brendan
yeah

11:32.46
fungalboy
Is that what's come to pass?

11:34.91
Brendan
ah So the UK would still probably measure at about 3% of the total category. I don't have the latest numbers to date, so I'd be interested to hear from someone who does have that data.

11:45.51
Brendan
perhaps um ah IWSR and Nielsen could update us on that. The reason why the UK is interesting, well, sorry, let me let me let me um say first that I think the UK is about, the alcohol-free segment represents about 6% of the total beer category.

12:00.77
Brendan
And that's how we measure the size of the alcohol-free beer market. So for example, the biggest market in the world by by that measure is Spain, which is, six the alcohol-free is 16% of the total beer category.

12:12.04
fungalboy
Wow.

12:12.25
Brendan
um The global um multinational brewers ah and predicting that low and no alcohol will be about 10 to 20% of the total beer category by 2030. It's driven by universal macro trends in the Western world anyway around ah towards health and wellness, you know, choosing better few products, moderation and and healthier healthier lifestyles. um Look, I did predict that the UK would be much bigger. And the reits are the reason why why I'm saying the UK is bigger and we're not measuring it is because the UK is unique.

12:44.38
Brendan
in that so much volume goes through the directed to consumer a channel directly from brands on their Shopify websites and also through e-commerce. And the reason for that in the UK is because there's the enterprise investment schemes where there's so much startup investment. So there's a groundswell of innovative brands. There's lots of there's more it's easier access to capital in the UK than anywhere else in the world. And so you see less few fuel brands um going into grocery, which tends in the UK tends to be dominated by the multinationals.

13:18.26
Brendan
And you'll see that the independent startups and where the real innovation is happening in the UK, going direct consumer.

13:18.45
fungalboy
Yeah.

13:23.95
Brendan
And that's not measured as that percent of of total beer category, because that's a measure for grocery, Epos terminals only, right?

13:30.49
fungalboy
la

13:33.63
fungalboy
so what you're seeing So what you're seeing then is something like the growth of let's say Lucky Saint or Big Drop Brewing um and and a lot of their direct to consumer business model actually not showing up in the numbers that ah you think are probably much closer to 6% than 3%.

13:33.72
Brendan
So that's where the data... Yeah.

13:41.76
Brendan
yeah

13:52.06
Brendan
Yeah, that's exactly right. Now, now Lucky State and Big Drop are probably the exceptions because they do have some great like grocery listings, um but actually they have very strong direct-to-consumer businesses as well.

14:02.71
Brendan
And that's that's just not measured.

14:03.07
fungalboy
as well.

14:04.42
Brendan
So with the yeah UK, you just need you just need to be a little bit more flexible with your view of how to measure the market. I mean, I'm not sure if there's anyone who's who's um combining direct-to-consumer estimates because they would only be estimates.

14:19.40
fungalboy
Yeah.

14:19.52
Brendan
um or if there's an industry reporting body that would do that. But my best guess being ah an expert in alcohol free would be that the UK's easily 6% just based on the number of brands and and and what I know some of the the sales volumes are.

14:35.26
fungalboy
So if if you're a new startup then, you know is the is this then a very attractive space to play because you can carve out different distribution opportunities for yourself?

14:38.71
Brendan
Yeah.

14:47.66
Brendan
Absolutely. Well, the the first thing is the UK government put in the best um startup funding program ever called the SEED Enterprise Investment Scheme, which means for the first 250,000, the government guarantee 80% of that capital. um You can claim 50% back up from your tax. So essentially half your investment, you get you get back straight away.

15:10.10
Brendan
um So it really encourages investment in in those small areas. The second is because that's been there for a number of years, um that UK consumers are used to looking online for their alcohol-free choices. so And also there's the the growth of large e-commerce sites like Dry dry Drinker or Wise Bartender. There's a whole range of them that carries a much, much, I mean, a seriously bigger range than Sainsbury's or Tesco's.

15:39.45
fungalboy
Yeah.

15:39.56
Brendan
yeah you walk into Sainsbury and then look good on Sainsbury's test guides and particularly weight trays for relaying their alcohol free section so that they're easier to find because availability and visibility is everything in in alcohol free.

15:51.95
Brendan
If you can't find it, people won't buy it.

15:52.31
fungalboy
No.

15:53.85
Brendan
But if you can find it and there's a large choice, I'll buy a lot more of it you know because in actually that because it's seen as a valid part of their repertoire to bring in. But um really, if you're a if you're a regular consumer in alcohol free and you want to find new tastes and different brands and to see what's coming out more recently, for example, the mood enhancing alcohol free beer segment is just racing ahead because you know people aren't compromising on effect.

16:20.69
Brendan
um if you If you want to go and find those new brands, you won't find them in Waitrose or Sainsbury's, you will find them online.

16:28.33
fungalboy
but Certainly not at the moment.

16:28.65
Brendan
And that's different that's different from other Western European markets that doesn't have the the incentives for startups to start. And you have the multinationals dominating the grocery channel much more. So the UK is the hotbed for innovation.

16:45.47
fungalboy
So it's it's a kind of curious situation where it's behind on volume, but maybe but ahead on innovation, perhaps.

16:51.12
Brendan
way ahead on Way ahead on innovation, just because of the financial incentives and the ease. Sorry, it's not easy at all. But technically, it's easier to find capital and investment in the UK than anywhere else.

17:03.53
Brendan
And actually, a lot ago know there was a great article in the Times in the weekend that talked about

17:03.81
fungalboy
So.

17:08.23
Brendan
how high net worth individuals, because of the tax, the just the straight out tax breaks, are now investing in SEIS schemes. Anything above 250,000 goes into the enterprise investment scheme, where where the benefits are ah slightly slightly less, but that goes up to a million pounds in and investment. And actually, the other part to the the benefit, not to sell the scheme too much, but um you don't pay capital gains tax if you invest in SEIS. So you know the the the pay the potential payback on a successful startup at that early stage is huge in the UK. I mean, it really is the best um business initiative that that that any government's put in, as far as I can see.

17:48.11
fungalboy
Well, with an ASEAN and Irishman talking so eloquently about the benefits of the UK's investment system, I'm wondering why I haven't moved there or why I don't have a spare million to drop into it.

18:02.88
Brendan
Post postb Brexit, it's not all roses, trust me.

18:03.11
fungalboy
and yeah No, but but in fairness, that when they've got something right, we have to we have to acknowledge it and and take advantage of it. And is that something that is helping that new wave, if you will, of startups to counter the kind of ah ah inherent advantages that the bigger players have? because The alcohol-free category wave has been has been coming for some time. So if you're trying to get on it at this point, you know it's a pretty crowded space. ah how How do smaller players take advantage of the opportunities that are there?

18:39.86
Brendan
Well, I mean, let's just talk about is it a crowded space or not? In our last podcast three years ago, I talked about how categories grow and actually new as as the percentage of total beer increases, so more consumers are trying and repeat purchasing the segment, the requirement for people to have other flavors, other brew styles,

19:02.29
Brendan
different flavors to try in increases. And actually you see the alcohol-free segment of beer. If you just talk about category expansion, start to go into craft flavors, you know, where people want to know the best, you know, they know the best possible brews out there. ah They start to go into more low-tempo occasions of fruity tastes, sort of the adult soft drink styles, and a more high-tempo need occasions where they might want more so more stimulation.

19:32.23
Brendan
either through botanicals and or just straight out um taste profile. So you do you do see that you know the categories ah expand over time and portfolios ah expand ah to to match that.

19:46.33
fungalboy
So, specifically then, is there an opportunity where the category is really moving beyond, ah to borrow a phrase I think that you used in the past, from no compromise, where you were kind of at best neutral, youre you were able to say that ah this brand beer at zero zero, you know, at best, it's going to taste the same.

20:06.43
fungalboy
And it's going to do the same ah things except without maybe some of the ah compromises in terms of ah health, etc, that alcohol gives. And it's moving into a space where actually, you can be net positive.

20:15.74
Brendan
Yeah.

20:19.03
fungalboy
It's not just that this beer is alcohol free, but that it might do something else for you that has functionality.

20:19.29
Brendan
Yeah.

20:23.02
Brendan
Yeah. Indeed. Indeed. Indeed. I mean, this goes back to my um previous point, which I don't know if I close that properly. Um, so that portfolio growth is incremental sales because more and more people are buying in more and more occasions. Uh, and it's not just fragmenting an already small segment.

20:42.06
Brendan
And that's what's really exciting about how alcohol-free grows over time. And so in the UK, so many of the of the brands have expanded across different variants. And Brewdog has launched more and more alcohol-free craft flavors. For example, Beavertown have done that. Lucky Sane, to their credit, have launched into draft ah hugely over southeastern England. In fact, it's down now national. And that's really put alcohol-free at the front of the bar, which is you know a specific occasion that they're bringing al alcohol-free into, which means it's incremental. But to your point about has the segment matured beyond the point of no compromise, the answer is yes, because you know and we we spoke about this before, but yeah I think there's a shelf life on how often you can say to an alcohol-free consumer, the benefit of this is you don't have to compromise. yeah The lack of lack of downside is not a compelling

21:39.31
Brendan
category growth proposition, right? What people are looking for is, yes, I want something that tastes great.

21:42.55
fungalboy
Yeah.

21:47.75
Brendan
And that's, and so talk about that, you know, talking to my brand peers out there, but also talk about the benefits, you know, it's better for you. And actually, even if you're just an alcohol-free beer, you're likely to be low in calorie, you know, you're likely to have you know, levels of unfermented fault mol in there that give you great mouthfeel, that give you know the really great of satisfaction because it tastes it doesn't feel like it's a watery soda pop or a badly brewed beer. We need to start talking about that as as a segment. And in particular, you know, I've launched New Wave as

22:21.15
Brendan
as as you mentioned there. And that yeah we have added we've added enhancing botanicals there so we can talk about you have a social buzz. This is good for your cognition, this is good for so forth. And we've also added postbiotics or biobiotics as we're we're allowed to call them in the UK, which are at the cutting edge of of innovation that are good for gut health.

22:43.01
Brendan
good for immunity, metabolism, good for longer term improvements in in mental health. I mean, we don't want to be a health product and we're not making claims strong claims about about that at all. But actually, if you want a better for you product that's also gluten free and vegan, for example, I mean, the list on New Wave of important, relevant and desired benefits is really long. So we have to be really selective about what benefit we're selling, how we prioritise, what we call the message hierarchy around the brand.

23:12.06
Brendan
because I fundamentally believe that the alcohol-free segment needs to start talking about benefits beyond taste, some are going into functionality. And if we look at the performance of brands like Tripp or Olipop in the gut health soda area, you know, these brands are kicking goals.

23:26.33
fungalboy
Yeah.

23:28.87
Brendan
They're doing really well. As far as I, I mean, I think the last number I had was Tripp's revenue was well over 20 million per annum, heading heading to 30 quite quickly and with the US expansion occurring.

23:42.43
Brendan
So, you know, these brands are going to be really big and actually it's the same consumer who's drinking functional adult adult soft drinks and gut health sodas as are drinking alcohol free beers. It's just different occasions. As you said, people's repertoires are expanding. They're treating different brands on different occasions.

24:00.61
Brendan
and you know And so our mission is to get alcohol free beer into that functional, better for you space and actually into more occasions than what alcohol free beer is at the moment. Because post COVID,

24:14.47
Brendan
um yeah My opinion is that there's just been no innovation in the beer category at all. but It's been a moment for the multinational brewers to take stock and lick their wounds after after COVID.

24:25.31
fungalboy
Yeah.

24:25.79
Brendan
and The reason why I'm excited about being in the UK at the moment, having had an international career, is this is where the innovation is happening. This is what we just mentioned. This is where the investment is happening.

24:36.50
Brendan
and so bringing you know, alcohol free beer with benefits and better for you benefits is just part of what will change the global web landscape in alcohol free beer.

24:48.17
fungalboy
So I i get the passion that you you're obviously poured into the category and and you've invested in it

24:53.97
Brendan
there was but There was a lot there Will, there was a lot there.

24:55.84
fungalboy
Yeah. in Well, and and rightly so, you're excited ah about it. You've been so excited about this category for a long time. You've delivered a lot of really ah insightful commentary on it. And now you're putting your money where your mouth is and and launching your own brand.

25:09.77
fungalboy
I'm very interested then, if I ask a simple question of saying, well, what is New Wave and how does it work, you know, how are you going to structure the the the hierarchy of benefits, as you put it?

25:09.84
Brendan
Yeah.

25:20.66
Brendan
yeah Yeah, well, certainly, you know, it's it's ah and first and foremost, it's a great tasting alcohol-free beer. You know, you can add as many benefits as you want into a beer brand. And if it tastes awful, no one will ever drink you again. You might get one go at it, right?

25:38.13
Brendan
but So that's why we've spent most of our time making sure that it tastes great. New wave is a new wave, by the way, listeners. Look, we've got moon-enhancing botanicals in there, ashwagandha, maca, and lion's mane mushroom. we use ah We use a high-tech extraction technique that that doesn't taste like anything. It just goes into a water and glycerin mix, highly concentrated, and we add a drop into the the bright beer tank at the end of the brewing process.

26:05.37
Brendan
So it just tastes like beer because it is just beer. That's the only taste component there. And then we add those post-biotics, as I mentioned, for gut health metabolism primarily. But actually there are benefits in terms of immunity and mental health as well. And actually, so we just talk about, it's botanicals for a social buzz and biotics for gut health and metabolism.

26:31.92
Brendan
And we want just want to be a simple, better for you beer.

26:35.57
fungalboy
Hmm.

26:35.81
Brendan
You know, it happens to be vegan friendly and and gluten free as well. um But essentially the the headline is, you know, botanicals for a social buzz and and biotics for gut health and metabolism.

26:46.70
fungalboy
Ah.

26:46.90
Brendan
And the reason why is because the botanicals make you happier today and biotics make you happier tomorrow. You know, there's different diagrams, right? That's kind of the simple the simple proposition of the whole thing.

26:58.47
Brendan
And the reason there's a big smiley face on the front of the can is because it's all about mood enhancing, better for you, making people feel good. And that's ultimately, we believe that young consumers who are walking away from alcohol and droves still want to socialize, still want to feel good, still want to have some social lubricant happening, and they want something different and new from the beer category. And we think we are delivering that. And you know I think there's reasons why the multinationals won't go into functional beers. There are easier and more profitable solutions for them

27:30.36
Brendan
in the next few years, but eventually we're going to have to start innovating beyond just simple alcohol free line extensions of existing brands.

27:39.89
fungalboy
So i'm I'm curious, then. So ah you put it beautifully. And I love that line. ah I'm a sucker for the simplicity of you know ah something like um mood enhancing makes you feel better today.

27:52.41
fungalboy
ah Biotics make you feel better tomorrow.

27:54.93
Brendan
That's right.

27:54.89
fungalboy
i you know That's a tick, tick, tick for me. And from within a trade advocacy hat on, I can i can see that line. and It's a simple, sticky story, that as I like to say, ah that will will people will repeat for you eventually.

28:04.85
Brendan
Yeah.

28:08.06
Brendan
Yeah.

28:08.82
fungalboy
but what ah

28:08.97
Brendan
And actually thanks thanks for saying that because yeah obviously we're still working our way through finessing our marketing communication, um but it those those simple expressions of what we stand for is where we we will end up getting to because actually when you talk about all the technical bits, it becomes a bit too complicated and a bit overwhelming when you just want to drink a great tasting beer, right?

28:31.44
Brendan
So simplicity is everything.

28:33.64
fungalboy
Of course. and And like I said, my my motto when working with with brands on stuff like this is, is it a simple sticky story? Is it simple enough to remember? Is it sticky enough that they will actually um hold on to the information?

28:47.69
fungalboy
And is it a story? Because people tell stories. And if you tell the story in the right way, they will tell that story on on your behalf. um But

28:54.62
Brendan
Yeah, absolutely. But you've got to make it simple, right?

28:57.58
fungalboy
Yeah, yeah what i see ah back to the old ah Winston Churchill quote of, you know and I'm sorry, I didn't have time to write you a short letter.

29:05.88
Brendan
Yeah.

29:06.00
fungalboy
It's so much harder to to keep something simple and to keep it to keep it short. But I know that we we don't necessarily, you know when we're doing those communications to to consumers and to to to trade, and that we we can't get into the technical details.

29:20.74
fungalboy
But I do i do need to understand a little bit about it. And that's why podcasts are are great. we can ah explore this in a little bit more depth. So how does it work? So um the lion's mane mushrooms and the other botanicals, did um do they make me feel good?

29:30.28
Brendan
Yeah.

29:35.04
Brendan
Right.

29:35.89
fungalboy
or Or can I just say they make me feel good? And you know, is it a placebo effect?

29:38.98
Brendan
Yeah.

29:39.49
fungalboy
Do do we know?

29:41.22
Brendan
Oh yeah, no, they you if you if you drink new wave, you definitely feel it. I mean, it's not like alcohol, or sorry, similar to alcohol, but it's not exactly the same. um Look, I'm not, I i mean, I'm just disclaimer, I'm not a scientist or a botanical scientist, but we we have a botanical scientist from our supplier on our advisory board who has done the formulation for us.

30:01.70
Brendan
um So let me explain it to you as far as i as well as I can as i bit of ah a bit of a layman with some experience in this territory. And I did use to work with um Professor David Nutts, who has ah has a brand called Sentier, which is in the Mood and Hunting Spirits segment.

30:15.75
Brendan
So I sort of um have learned something from him.

30:16.08
fungalboy
Nice things.

30:18.82
Brendan
um Look, these are that they're called adaptogenic botanicals. They've been known to ayurvedic medicine for millennia, ah thousands and thousands of years, and have been used as as calming botanical plants for a long time. We've chosen ashwagandamaka and lion's mane because they are the most popular. So if you ah go into Holland and Barrett, for example,

30:40.38
Brendan
and look for some supplements that are mood-enhancing or calming, then those are the top three that you will find. And we wanted to do that because we didn't want to use some niche or scary botanicals at all. These are totally totally safe and when well-known to people who are who were in this space. The way I understand they work is that they stimulate the release of and reception of a neurotransmitter called GABA, and that's an acronym for gamma aminobutyric acid.

31:09.01
Brendan
And so, and that is ah involved in the sleep-wake cycle. So, there's GABA and then there's glutamate. And so, glutamate makes you wake up and all stressed.

31:17.75
fungalboy
Yeah.

31:19.46
Brendan
And GABA makes you calm down and all sleep. And there's lots of and again pharmaceutical drugs that still work on the GABA system. So, they're quite powerful sort of, um you know, drugs that can really knock you knock you out.

31:32.05
Brendan
So, it's quite a powerful system to to to play with. But these are botanicals. We're talking very subtle. um feelings that are just known to people and, you know, you can go into a Holland and Barrett and and and buy supplements to help you. So that's how I understand those work. The postbiotics, we work with ADN, the world's leading food tech business, as our partner. ah The postbiotics, people might know prebiotics, pop probiotics, which are the but bacteria. Well, ah postbiotics, they metabolize enzymes and molecules from the bacteria. um And they're the they're the things that provide

32:08.69
Brendan
world benefits in terms of reducing inflammation, improving gut microbiome and all the other benefits I talked about in terms of just general gut health, metabolism, et cetera.

32:19.61
Brendan
the The reason why postbiotics are really exciting is because probiotics are live bacteria and they don't pass through your stomach very well because of the very acidic environment and they don't really get to work because not many of them get through.

32:32.20
fungalboy
Yeah.

32:32.54
Brendan
Whereas postbiotics being as simple simple molecules they are, are kind of indestructible and very beneficial for for people. I mean, again, I just say that we we don't want to be a health, we're not a health product, we're not making health claims at all. um But we we do support gut health and metabolism. And I think that's the only thing that we really want to say and and all can claim from a packaging perspective. um But there are clinical trials of of these postbiotics in supplement form.

33:01.22
Brendan
If you go to our website, you can you can link through to those clinical trials to see some of the extraordinary results they're getting. And I would just say that as much as I um have predictions about the alcohol-free category and its growth, I would say that gut health will continue to to grow in terms of food and drinks, and post-biotics people will see more of and become much more accustomed to them. And I would say that probably the apple cider vinegar brands should probably pay take note of that, as um yeah just given the efficacy of um of these post-biotics.

33:32.16
fungalboy
Well, it's hugely educational and I guess it just adds to the repertoire of slightly confusing terms that that consumers have to deal with. Is it prebiotics?

33:42.63
fungalboy
Is it probiotics? Is it postbiotics? I think ah wisely you've just gone with on the packaging, I think you just simply say biotics.

33:45.32
Brendan
Yeah.

33:49.54
Brendan
Yeah. Because it doesn't really matter what the precursor is, but it's just better.

33:53.44
fungalboy
Yeah.

33:56.84
Brendan
It's just supports got health and metabolism and that's it. So, you know, and again, I mean, that's a packaging requirement because you can't say put post-biotics on a UK pack packaging just yet.

34:10.87
Brendan
But it does just keep things really simple as well. And that's the thing. we don't want to This is a beer. This is a beer to be enjoyed in social environments. It's better for you beer. So these you know the packaging communication is just there as a reassurance that we've really thought about how what what what experience you want.

34:27.79
Brendan
and the level of sort of healthiness that people want because we do fund them as a business we fundamentally believe that younger people are reevaluating their relationship with alcohol and they want something that is better for you but still tasty and helps you know lubricate social sit situations.

34:45.60
fungalboy
So in reference to the packaging then, um you know you have very striking looking packaging. yeah Can you tell me a bit about what new wave where I can find New Wave in particular and um what to expect in your your green and yellow cans?

34:56.92
Brendan
yeah

35:02.16
Brendan
Yeah, well, there'll be pink and and blue soon, and and then we need to work out a color color for our staff. Where can you find us? Mainly online at NewAveDrinks.com or DryDrinker or Wise Bartender.

35:16.00
Brendan
So we only launched nine weeks, 10 weeks ago now. So we're where but we're still a baby brand.

35:20.47
fungalboy
Very new.

35:22.61
Brendan
um So we're all very excited and you know just overjoyed that we've been able to get this far. We really look forward to it to to a bright future. um So we're having conversations with retailers at the moment. um So hopefully we'll have some some big news in terms of those retails. But but yeah these things take take time, retail conversations and you know expanding your brand with distributors, et cetera. It's a slower process than then a a founder might want because those pesky retailers want proof that these things are going to sell and that they'll get repeat purchase, et cetera.

35:58.56
Brendan
um I mean, I just joked about that. um But we do need some sales file data to to get into into the retail.

36:05.71
fungalboy
And is it UK only ah you know we have.

36:07.07
Brendan
Is UK in the oil? No, we've sent we've said we've sent some stock to um to the Netherlands. We've got some conversations with European distributors and e-commerce sites occurring.

36:18.12
Brendan
And where the packaging's already EU compliant, so we're we're ready ready to go. um as soon as possible, albeit BarCon in Berlin and in in the middle of the month.

36:28.74
Brendan
That's the biggest trade show for you know for retailers and distributors. We're looking forward to setting up some firmer relationships in Europe.

36:38.63
fungalboy
So people can.

36:38.96
Brendan
but for you know we you know One step at a time, you know UK first, that's our number one priority, will will yeah look for easy you European opportunities now, but really give it a push in 2025, along with USA expansion as well.

36:54.92
fungalboy
Well, that's fantastic, I think.

36:55.61
Brendan
Yeah, <unk> assuming, of course, you know the investment keeps on coming in.

37:01.06
fungalboy
Well, I guess, you know, to to let you know not to labour the point, but then if people are interested enough in either buying New Wave or if they're they're convinced by, you know, your your your very eloquent sales pitch for the um ah for the funding mechanism and the ah investment strategy in the UK, how can people get in touch?

37:18.48
Brendan
yeah

37:21.44
fungalboy
Where's the best place to find more information about New Wave?

37:25.21
Brendan
Look, I think start at the website, that's the best place. I mean, if they didn't realize we're going to talk about so much about New Wave, so thank you very much. I think they can, on the website, there's an email just hello at new wave drinks dot com, and they can get in touch with me directly through that email if there's any investment interest. And yeah, we would certainly welcome any of those conversations.

37:51.83
fungalboy
Fantastic, Brendan. It's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you again, to round out a conversation that we we started over three years ago. And by all means, people should go back, listen to that episode, as I said, episode 17. If you want to get a breakdown of the codification of how to grow within the alcohol free space. And then it's wonderful to see you taking all that learning and putting it into action and putting your money where your mouth is.

38:17.52
Brendan
Yeah, no, I feel like I'm sort of proof of everything I was saying back three three years ago. But it's been wonderful to be back on, Will. And um you know I hope hope your listeners get something out of this because the alcohol-free segment in beer is still a hotbed of innovation. It's really exciting to see the growth happening around the world. And I think it's really exciting to see the category as a whole, the beer category as a whole, the drinks category as a whole.

38:41.73
Brendan
starting to offer consumers better choices, yeah more rounded choices, because not everyone wants to drink alcohol in every single occasion. So you know it's good. um If I could just share one quick anecdote. there was I was at an alcohol-free conference the other week, and someone explained to me that Hakusan restaurant, which is a really well-known Asian restaurant in in London, very very high-end and known for their great taste in cocktails, et cetera, now start their cocktail menus with their alcohol-free version first.

39:11.75
Brendan
So it's all about taste and then decide which which sort of, I mean, they always have it in mind, but decide which spirits brands to to put into into their cocktails. And I think it's great to to be taste first and then alcohol alcohol as a ah second secondary consideration because ultimately that's what yeah people, that yeah their their consumers aren't really want.

39:33.17
fungalboy
um I love it, Brendan. ah Maybe someday you and I will be sharing a meal there and and a a new wave beer perhaps.

39:39.55
Brendan
I look forward to it.

39:39.52
fungalboy
ah Thank you again and the very best of luck.

39:43.79
Brendan
Thanks, Will. Appreciate it.

39:49.17
fungalboy
Perfect.

People on this episode